Peabody: Life, Friends Baseball

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21 Responses to “Jay Buhner Says He’d Vomit If Ichiro Re-signed To Large Contract”

1. Mick Sheldon Says:
   July 18th, 2012 at 10:44 am

   Which would be worse , Ichiro resigning a large contract or a team where ichiro s still the best hitter on that team?

   I really do not see him as a coach , he really did some unconventional antics when he is his glory days , bunting with a man on second , etc .

   I figure the Mariners are waiting to get past the Figgins deal and then will go shoping with the money they use to pay Ichiro and Figgy ?

2. Suquamish Says:
   July 18th, 2012 at 1:19 pm

   Jay Buhner for President! I hope the Mariner’s dump Ichiro off the payroll completely. Where did he get the Mariner’s? NO WHERE! Infield base hits do not cut it!

3. terrybenish Says:
   July 18th, 2012 at 2:53 pm

   Thanks for writing. He is coming to the end of it and the team has attributed way more value to him from both a marketing and baseball perspective.

4. terrybenish Says:
   July 18th, 2012 at 3:02 pm

   Mick, Mick, Mick, I feel so bad. 560 posts or so and you start a comment like that. Ichiro has rarely been the best hitter on this team. Maybe 2004. But certainly not now. You’re missing the point terribly here. He can not play any more and has not been able to play well for almost two years now. Started going bad midway in 2010. It’s over.

   As I write this, at .636, Ichiro has the seventh best OPS on the team. Last year, full year, at .645, he was the 10th best player on the team.

   In 2001 when he won the ROY and MVP he was the fourth best player on Mariners, OPS.

   He would not be a good coach. Nobody hits like that, and he does not talk to anybody.

   Buhner’s remarks may be pithy, but he voiced what many of current and former team mates think but won’t say.

5. Mick Sheldon Says:
   July 18th, 2012 at 9:42 pm

   Terry do not share your view of Ichiro . Yes I agree the last two years he offered little . My point was that the Mariner hitting has been so bad he still is standout on the team . Was not a Ichiro endorsemet , it was a slap against the team .

   I grew up watching the Yanks , and when mantle was going out , I think he hit like 17 HRs his last year , he was still someone you come to see play . His bad day was a Andy Kosco good day .

   How many players have gotten 200 or more hits the last decade as consistently as Ichiro has ? How many ? Thats not bad , he was a lead off man , thats why we got him . The Mariners were so bad they needed him to do more , Ichiro can’t , thats not because he is a bad player . As a set up man he was one the best the past decade , he got on base . How many teams would have given much to get what you consider a marginal hitter I guess ? Any manager would love to have a guy on base , hitting 300 . Leading off .

   Or am I just not digesting what your saying . In 2001 he was instrumental in that team , many Mariner had career years , Boonie was incredible . But how may runs were scored by the lead off man , who set the table . How many times did he lead a game off with a hit .

   Yeah do not offer him a contract I agree, but what player would you say was consistently better with the mariners over the last ten years has shown more consistency then Icherio ? Like to hear it ?

6. terrybenish Says:
   July 20th, 2012 at 3:51 pm

   This is worthy of a post…but let me take it as a moveable feast and respond. There has only been one year in his entire time with the team that he was the best hitter on the team. There are other holistic measures including one that I use, but they have flaws and OPS does work. The year he was the best guy was 2004. No other year was that true and he has not been remotely the best hitter on this team in any of the years since.

   200 hits paragraph, there are several things to discuss: Lets start with 200 hits. Is it good, great, meh? Somewhere between good and meh. No right fielder with his kind of stats has ever been elected to hall of fame, unless their election was wind aided, e.g. Veteran’s committee elections half centuries after their first eligibility. I think you sort of since the issue, when you cadge your remark by saying we got him to be a leadoff hitter. There are a couple of issues about that which should be noted. Team rarely if ever win, with lead off hitters in corner positions. Before you trot out Ricky Henderson, his OPS numbers are monstrous. Corner guys need to hit in a productive manner. Lead off guys usually play in middle of field positions. The Mariners as far as I am aware of never entertained offers for Ichiro. If you believe in efficient markets, either he is not as good as you think as a corner guy or way over-paid, not just now but for a long time.

   As an economist I will tell you that scarcity and value enter into where you put your money. At $4-6 million a year Ichiro would be fine, except that as a right fielder in the American League in twelve years he has never been the best player not remotely and you need a guy there that anchors your team that bats 3-4-5 and drives in 130 runs a year. They spent on him as if he was that player. In 2004 his best year he was the third best right fielder in AL. In 2001 the 6th best. Never, ever the best.

   As a leadoff hitter he’d get his 100 runs, which is good, not great but good.

   In 2001 there were three guys that were more important to team than him offensively, Boone, Olerud and Martinez. Overall you can throw Cameron in there.

   Overall over the twelve seasons he’s been good at times. In 2004 he was the 22nd best player in the league. That was the high water mark. 26th in 2001. 69th last year, 72nd through Monday.

   I love the word perfidy, because it figures into your last question when you ask me who’s been more consistent? Year to year, lots of guys were better, many of them were traded off, year after year. Ichiro also influenced that especially when the guy would eclipse him on the field or nudge him in clubhouse, such as Jose Guillen did.

   Everybody keeps talking about hall of fame first ballot. I don’t think so. Not a lot of singles hitters have made it since the dead ball era concluded.

   They overpaid him by treble what he was worth, maybe more than that.

   He started sliding in 2010. That year he was the 13th best right fielder in AL, in 2011 the 17th and this year the 16th. Remember there are fourteen teams.

7. Mick Sheldon Says:
   July 20th, 2012 at 8:00 pm

   Perhaps I am making this too complicated . His first ten years , the guy had 200 hits or more . Most teams would love to have a lead off man that was that consistent playing on their team . I guess you wouldn’t . He had 242 hist in 2001, MVP , Rookie of the Year .

   Perhaps you know many players on he Mariners who were more consistent then he was for those ten years , but you did not name one. Compare stats and you will see why .

   http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/suzukic01.shtml

   The players may have had good years , but to do it consistently over a decade is another matter . Name any player on any of those teams , that left us in the tens years he played that had even close to 200 hits a year ? Just one name would be good . name one that came close to ten gold gloves at their position ?

   The fact he was over paid is not the fault of Icherio . Your right many lead off hitters do usually play up the middle , but its strange world and sometimes strange things happen . A Gold Glover playing right field was not that much of hardship for a team like the mariners ,

   I never made the case for the Hall Of Fame , he started playing later in years , a bit like Edgar in that degree where his stats come up short of many of the Hall of Famers . But if I was still in my strato matic playing days , having him lead off as my lead off “hitter” would only be a logical conclussion . I really don’t think you are making much sense . The guy is defintely no longer in his prime , and an extended contract is foolishness, but he was a darn good player for us .

8. terrybenish Says:
   July 21st, 2012 at 7:05 am

   I’m making it too complicated for you, but you asked.

   Hitting a bunch of singles is a hugely over-rated skill, it does not lead your team to any kind of winning as the last eleven years has demonstrated. The only reason that he has been paid so much money and endured is that the ownership of the team is primarily of the same origin as he is and because they thought marketing around him would make the team revenue, not win baseball games.

   Here are the players that year after year were better than him. Many of them despite their talent were let go:

   2001 Brett Boone, John Olerud, Edgar Martinez and Mike Cameron
   2002 John Olerud, Edgar Martinez, Brett Boone
   2003 Brett Boone, Edgar Martinez
   2004 His best year
   2005 Richie Sexson, Raul Ibanez
   2006 Raul Ibanez, Richie Sexson, Adrian Belter
   2007 Raul Ibanez, Jose Guillen, Adrian Beltre
   2008 Raul Ibanez, Adrian Beltre, Jose Lopez
   2009 Russell Branyan, Jose Lopez
   2010 Russell Branyan, Jose Lopez
   2011 There were nine guys last year that were better than him
   2012 There are seven or eight guys that are better this year, more if you count injured players.

   Take your Yankees or the Red Sox. His skill set, that of hitting singles as a right fielder would not be valued in the market by them and they would not have kept him in the lineup for years.

   What he does as a right fielder does not mean much towards winning baseball.

9. SharonOHara Says:
   July 23rd, 2012 at 8:15 am

   Terry why would good players be let go such as the players you mentioned above. If I owned a team I’d want to win and most certainly keep the best baseball players I could get -not let them go.
   Thanks! Sharon

10. terrybenish Says:
    July 23rd, 2012 at 8:31 am

    Here is what I can put together to answer your question. The top guys, Armstrong and Lincoln, hugely distrust baseball guys and don’t listen to them. If you read Art Thiel’s book, “Out Of Leftfield” which chronicles the 2001 season there are many passages that describe their focus being on marketing “entertainment” and not baseball. Further on in the book Lincoln is quoted as relishing putting down Lou Piniella and called him a barking dog. Lincoln’s and Armstrong’s interest was to deliver an operating profit and to secure personal bonus payments for same. The signing of Ichiro provided them (Lincoln and Armstrong) with both an international marketing entity and a way to make Mr. Yamauchi more comfortable with his investment. They have made horrific baseball moves since then due to the presence of Japanese players, such as the re-signing of Kenji Johjima to a contract extension when his play warranted him being released and the signing of Ichiro to this massive deal culminating in pay to him as a superstar $18 mm a year which is $12 mm to $15 mm too much. They can probably assert that his presence means that much revenue and more comes in because of him, but it is not due to his talent.

    In sum winning baseball has not been the over-riding factor.

11. Sharon O'Hara Says:
    July 23rd, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    Too bad. Baseball games must seem boring with talented, good players gone and watching the second string play.
    Seems to me rather like not letting the really talented horse and jockey enter a race in favor of the less remarkable but politically savvy horse owners horse.
    No fun to watch either one.

12. terrybenish Says:
    July 23rd, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    There is a lot of talent with this team from AA to AAA to MLB team, it will ripen and be good. As much talent as was here in 1990.

13. Mick Sheldon Says:
    July 23rd, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Iam hoping Icherio did not leave because what you wrote .. ;0)

14. terrybenish Says:
    July 24th, 2012 at 7:33 am

    If you think I’m bad, you should follow Jon Heyman, Buster Olney and Keith Olberman about the trade.

    Blistered Yankees about the trade.

15. terrybenish Says:
    July 24th, 2012 at 7:37 am

    Sharon, if you read any of the coverage in the Times yesterday, you will note that Mr. Yamauchi intended to offer Ichiro an extension, despite his on-field performance the last two years and that Lincoln and Armstrong were going to follow through as well to support that.

16. Mick Sheldon Says:
    July 24th, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    I don’t think its a bad move for the yanks . They use to this in their glory years in the 50s also . They take an aging player and fill their roster to add just a bit of what they needed . They don’t need the Icherio of old , they need just someone to fill in a hole in their roster to take them over the top, a vet . The fact they are paying too much I agree . But they have that luxury being in their market and having their ownership .

    Nice talking to you Terry , you sure have a great wealth of knowledge in the game of today . My criticism would be ” I know you wanted to know” would be their appears to be a Money Ball view ” Great Movie ” and the Old George Steinbrenner view of how you see the game . There is a between the line of statistics that means much too and I think you missed some of it in our conversation.

    Sometimes a team needs chemistry ,”95 Mariners” ” “76, 77,78 Yanks” having consistent players over the years can help establish that , Icherio to me was a consistent good player , a singles hitter, Pete Rose is another example , just the Reds brought in Bench , Perez etc to build on it , the Mariners left the foundation and called it quits the last few years . Bad Trades helped . The players you names could not have been relied on for those consistent years and being part of a foundation .

    Anyway ,I will be reading you

17. terrybenish Says:
    July 24th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    Thanks for writing again Mick.

    Let me take it in order: Not a bad move, Keith Law of ESPN and former player development guy for the Blue Jays was asked this morning what the off season market might be for Ichiro? None at all was his response, the players we got back here are not prospects. Ichiro’s skills have eroded, it happens when you get to be old.

    Last night Kevin Millwood gave him a belt high bp fastball, middle away and he lined it to centerfield for a hit. Later on he comes up with men on in scoring position and Millwood throws the ball middle in and 92mph and Ichiro hits a jam shot to Ackley. For the first seven years it was a line drive down either line depending on his approach.

    I have written about Pete Rose about 5,000 words and you would not be surprised about it. The Big Red Machine was full of monster players, coming and going that were far, far better than Rose during those years. Far better.

    It reminds me of my I Was Here Medal from being in the Navy, Rose especially gets one. Like Ichiro he was never, the best player on his team and yes he and Ichiro both got a lot of singles, but like Big Ted Kluszewski said, “Singles hitters drive Chevies, I drive a Cadillac. Go around the lineup: Johnny Bench, Lee May, Tony Perez, Joe Morgan, Dave Concepcion, George Foster, Ceasar Geronimo, Ken Griffey, Dan Driessen to name a few were more productive players on both sides of the ball. Their chemistry was made up of 98% confidence. That group of Yankees you cite had guys that hated each other, similar to the As of 72, 73 and 74.

    You can play or you can’t. Stats show that.

    There is no hiding.

    Again thanks for writing.

18. Mick Sheldon Says:
    July 25th, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    The Yanks I cited really were a great team . Chemistry . Sparky Lyle wrote a real fun baseball book called the Bronx Zoo that made me belly laugh at times . Billy Martin, Reggie Jackson and Thurman , Lyle has to deal with the Yanks getting Gossage , Roy White ,Lou Pinella etc etc etc..

    Chemistry is not a love fest .

19. terrybenish Says:
    July 25th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    The word in this context refers to a bond. Most sabermetric guys laugh at the notion.

    Most pros respond to the formula of playing well equates to get to play again and get a new contract.

    I tend to think over 162 games it is about talent.

    Similarly most sabermetric guys discount the contribution of the manager. Again it is never simple. A manager can keep people out of a line up, especially younger guys.

20. Mick Sheldon Says:
    July 25th, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    Has coffee with my old Pastor, who is a baseball nut , plays fantasy baseball , etc . Told him about our chit chat , he agreed with you .
    Where did I go wrong ?

21. terrybenish Says:
    July 26th, 2012 at 11:21 am

    At the end of the day, you can play or you can’t play. There are various ways to sort through the many stats that measure that. None of them suggest Ichiro can play any longer. Further what I see when I look at it is that he really fell apart the middle of July 2010. My eyes and my stopwatch told me there was a change in what was happening with his bat and foot speed.

    I started to do use sabermetric type tools in 1979 after I first read Bill James. I think some of the tools work well and dovetail nicely with physical measurables. I think others are less sound and over-arch don’t capture and even skew perceived value.

    I am an economist and I think positional scarcity is not everything but should play into the minds of GMs. In the Ms case it has not. They have thrown away good to great shortstops since the 90s and it has killed them. They have hugely over valued and overpaid in Ichiro’s case.

    Zduriencik arrived on the scene and it was liking viewing Warsaw in 1945…a wreck from top to bottom. He has drafted well, traded drek for drek and dumpster dived. Armstrong and Lincoln have cut payroll now by fifty percent. It’s hard to bake a pie without ingredients.