Are we “talking past each other” when it comes to education reform?
September 8th, 2009 by marietta nelsonWarning: constant() [function.constant]: Couldn't find constant TT_TH8US_LEN in /home/psblogs/public_html/wp-content/plugins/tweet-this/tweet-this.php on line 1821
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I get a lot of email from a lot of wonkish education advocacy groups and companies. Usually I read them and then discard because most of them are weird or partisan or selling something. But today I got one from Public Agenda, a non-profit, non-partisan research organization, and it seemed to speak to a lot of the conversations people have on this blog about education reform.
Here is part of the press release:
“More than a decade of research by Public Agenda suggests that reformers, parents, and educators nationwide are often talking past each other when it comes to improving the public schools.
Many parents and educators nationwide come at the issue of education from a very different starting point – one that national reformers often misunderstand or overlook. Marshalling support for reform and building a consensus to bring American schools up to world-class standards requires narrowing this gap and launching a more informed and inclusive discussion on how to improve the schools.
Here are four key areas where views of parents and educators contrast sharply with much of the national education reform discussion. In our research, parents say:
1. School culture – not academics — is the biggest problem facing America’s high schools: 73% of parents and 89% of teachers say the major issues facing local high schools are social and behavioral — not academic standards and outdated curricula.
2. Their children will be well prepared for college and work.
a. Despite recent reports that many Americans are not ready for college level work, 69% of parents say their child will have the necessary skills to succeed in college upon high school graduation.
b. 61% of parents believe their child will have the necessary skills to succeed in the working world upon high school graduation.
c. Phi Delta Kappa’s recent survey of attitudes on schools confirms high levels of parental confidence, 74% of parents give the school their own child attends a grade of A or B.
3. Low standards aren’t a problem. Parental support for standards and testing remains strong, but calls for reform centering mainly on raising standards and increasing accountability have lost some of their urgency. Educators are even less likely to focus on low standards as their chief problem.
a. 86% of parents say local schools have been careful and reasonable in raising standards.
b. Just 15% of parents say that low academic standards are very serious problem in local schools.
c. 92% of superintendents and 80% of principals believe that children in their school district are getting a better education than the one they themselves received.
d. Only 27% of school superintendents say it is a serious problem locally that students get passed through the system without learning.
4. Math and science education is just fine as is. National policymakers and business leaders worry that the nation is losing its technological edge, but parents and educators feel less urgency about ramping up student skills and knowledge.
a. 70% of parents of high school students say their child’s math and science coursework is fine as is.
b. Just 13% of parents consider inadequate math and science education a very serious problem in local schools. Even fewer superintendents and principals say the same—only 7% of superintendents and 6% of principals say that kids not being taught enough math and science is a very serious problem.”
I found the first fact – that 73 percent of parents and a whopping 89 percent of teachers say school culture is the major problem facing public schools these days – the most interesting. So parents, teachers, community members, students – what’s your take on this polling information? Are social and behavioral challenges greater than academic challenges?
Scripps Interactive Newspapers Group
September 8th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I agree. The root of many academic challenges are behavior or social in nature. As a 6th grade science teacher, there is almost always a correlation between low performing students who also have significant challenges at home or with social peers. Addressing these issues is very important, but also increasingly difficult.
September 8th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Cameron
Thanks for your thoughtful, well-informed reply. I’m sure the data from Public Agenda was no surprise to you! Can you talk a little bit more about what you have done or what you have heard can be done to change the culture of a classroom of a school toward positivity about learning?
I know for me personally this discussion of school culture goes back to my school experience. We had a high school principal who was just one of those people who could really inspire and encourage students. We wanted to do well because we wanted Mr. Cleveland to be proud of us. And we also knew that if we did not do well, he would pick us up and dust us off. We had an enormous amount of faith and trust in him and he set the tone for our school. So that leads me to think that school culture can really hinge on school leadership. Is that your experience?
Marietta
September 8th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Culture is like soil. Standards are like seeds. Seeds can be dropped or planted anywhere. But whether they take root depends on the soil that surrounds them.
Throw 1000 seeds (standards) on a rocky ledge and maybe a seed or two will take root in a crevase, but most of the seeds will be wasted because they fall on hard rocks that won’t shelter and nurish the seeds to allow them to sprout and grow.
Carefully prepare the soil (culture), fertilize it with nutrients, water it regularly, and those same 1000 seeds planted with intent, in this well maintained soil will sprout and thrive… growing the vast majority of the seeds well beyond expectations.
Culture is everything!!
Regards,
Kathryn Simpson
September 8th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Marietta,
Mr. Cleveland understood farming.
Regards,
Kathryn Simpson
September 8th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Interesting.
What specific social and behavioral changes are needed to make the students shine academically?
Amazing, but if true, why do teachers need the two year tenure?
Did earlier generations not have social or behavior issues?
Haven’t this nation’s scholastic standards been reduced over time, not increased?
…just wondering..
Sharon O’Hara
September 8th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Kathryn, you don’t know how apt your anology is. I grew in the heart of some of Iowa’s finest farmland. You bet Mr. Cleveland understood farming!
Sharon, I have heard before people question whether our scholastic standards are lower today than they have been in the past. I can’t speak definitively about that as I don’t think I am qualified. However, I can speak from what I know about my own children’s educations. My 10th grader, in particular, is learning things that I learned during my sophomore year of college. An engineer friend mentioned a few days ago that his 10th-grade daughter, in an AP chem class, is learning things he learned his freshman year of college at in a rigorous engineering program. I know many kids are being challenged and pushed in ways that would not have occurred to my teachers 30 years ago. But then again, that is only my experience.
September 9th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Actually, if you read literature of any era (e.g., “Farmer Boy” by Laura Ingalls Wilder or “Of Human Bondage” by Somerset Maugham), you will realize that behavioral issues have always been a leading problem in educating children. The best way to counter this is to instill in children from a very early age that their education is important to them (not just to you as the parent). Schools have an obligation to optimally challenge students. Bright students who are bored are more likely to cause problems and recruit others. Students who are working way above their heads are equally likely to create problems because of frustration. Unfortunately our school systems are too egalitarian and we end up with more behavior problems than are necessary. Creating an academic environment where each student can maximize his or her potential is the best solution (and it may solve the math/science issues as well. A few of our local schools appear to be doing this.
But again, behavior issues have always existed and will always exist.
September 9th, 2009 at 9:17 am
Like Marietta, I just have a personal parent perspective on this. Cultural, social and economic differences and challenges are life. To better educate children the school system as a whole has spent the last couple of decades attempting to remove or mitigate these differences from the classroom. Instead of proving to be any sort of solution this policy as a whole has only moved and provided an excellent growing environment, using Kathryn’s analogy, for this to now be this huge problem of “school culture” which encompasses everything OUTSIDE of the classroom yet controls of influences much of what gets learned or absorbed INSIDE the classroom.
Recognition of cultural and social issues by participants of the poll does not necessarily translate into permission or approval for the “school or school leadership” to solve the problem. Family dynamics, social differences, economic challenges are already being influenced by existing policy and programs operating within our schools right now. Yet, despite these implemented programs, the poll shows that the majority of us recognize that we still have a large and ever growing school cultural problem on our hands.
And what is this policy of fairness and mitigation of differences really teaching our kids? Life is not fair. The workplace is not always fair. They will always have social, cultural and economic challenges in their lives. They will always be affected by the behavior issues of others. The real solution here is not to remove these challenges or adversity from their lives, but to instruct them with a wide variety of options on how to best deal with it and move on to better themselves. Some of the most influential people in the history and direction of our cultural society as a whole such as inventors, writers, thinkers and politicians have come from backgrounds of great adversity. Would they still have been the same people who achieved and accomplished so much if the adversity in their lives had been removed from them in their educational journey?
September 9th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Thanks, Colleen.
Marietta, thank you for the post. I think calling the results of the study a “fact” might be an inaccurate use of the word.
I don’t think the reformers are worried about exceptional students or schools that offer AP Chem to a sophomore. I don’t believe they want to reform good schools.
I have to keep coming back to Jason Kamras, 2005 National Teacher of the Year. With regards to students of economic or racial diversity he said “..there is no difference in their ability to learn.” He is now in DC, assisting Michelle Rhee and that group of reformers who are attempting to and succeeding at doing something impossible.
September 9th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Reading through these notes, I come to the conclusion that none of you, aside from resident teacher, Cameron, has any idea what you are talking about.
Interesting, as always. Not particularly informative, but interesting.
September 9th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Mary, Would you elaborate?
What do you think needs to be done to educate these kids?
This nation’s future depends on educated kids on a world wide level. We’re flunking now, no matter what the parents think. What are your thoughts on something so important?
Sharon O’Hara
September 10th, 2009 at 5:43 am
Thank you, Jessica. Nicely worded post and you hit the nail on the head. Early childhood. Also appreciate Cameron weighing in, teachers seldom do, but I wish he would offer a solution or remedy. Or put out a call for more early childhood opportunities. Something.
Sharon, maybe you should start a 5 year tenure campaign? It’s a start. You have to start somewhere. That is probably a more realistic amount of time for a teacher and their mentors to decide if that person chose the right career path.
September 10th, 2009 at 8:08 am
One of the issues is we are a society demanding instant gratification- if a program or curriculum doesn’t show immediate results, those in power want to find a new solution before the previous one has a chance to have an effect. The reaction to Obama’s speech exemplifies that many parents do not see education as a collaborative effort. Truly effective schools not only have good teachers and programs, but supportive, involved parents who know what their kids are up to at school, and hold their kids accountable for their actions. I’ve been in the education biz for 20+ years, and can tell you the schools I’ve worked in that have been the most effective have had strong parental support and student, teacher and parent accountability. It’s a team effort.
September 10th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Fern, thanks for your post. You are correct on both counts. Currently in the Bremerton School District there is pressure from individuals and groups aimed at wanting to see cuts in the aggressive Early Education programs that have been implemented over the past 4 years because they feel the recent data does not provide a big enough margin of proof or instant gratification that they should continue. Fortunately, because of Citizen Groups and a unified School Board on this one issue, the programs will continue for now and additional years of data will be brought into the future decision making process.
You are also correct regarding parent and community involvement. There are people who are already involved and others that want to get involved. But it is not easy and there is opposition to our involvement both from within the system and from without. I personally have recently taken some very personal hits and attacks on another thread of this very blog for my involvement and participation in opportunities provided to me by my child’s school district to be part of the process and have a hand in the decision making. Fortunately, I am not deterred in my efforts by such attacks or criticisms, but other parents are and that is the real tragedy for the improvement of public education as a whole.
September 10th, 2009 at 10:37 am
“the schools I’ve worked in that have been the most effective have had strong parental support and student, teacher and parent accountability. It’s a team effort.”
The accuracy of your comment, Fern, for me, goes back to the fact that when CK offered free summer tutoring to the students who failed the WASL only 10% of the students showed up to be tutored.
That figure indicates roughly 90 % of the parents were indifferent….shocking to me as a parent who paid to have a child tutored every summer for years…money I didn’t have to spare paid the tutoring fee.
Karen…What business do you know that offers tenure to ANY EMPLOYEE? None, that I know about.
Why do teachers need it? Their performance should guarantee them work if the schools are held accountable for their product – educated students. Obviously, the competitive schools will hire, treasure and keep the best producing teacher.
If student education is really primary, the emphasize would be on the best producing teachers and they would be paid for performance.
What business would hire a (any year) Tenure, Long Side to Retirement Employee?
Sharon O’Hara
September 10th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Fern, you are correct and the early childhood programs are as much for the parents as they are for the students. They train the parents to be an asset in the classroom, if they are so inclined to help in that way. I’ve helped out in classrooms where the teacher met certain volunteers at the door with armloads of copying work. The teacher didn’t want those untrained parents working with the students.
Parent bashing isn’t the answer. I don’t believe I’ve ever met a parent who didn’t love their children. Some may not have the best skills, resources, or had the best role models, but they all love their children. They need support, guidance, and direction. They need the information. It shouldn’t be a secret.
September 10th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Karen, you are correct. The reserved standoffish mentality from too many educators regarding the motives and willingness of parent volunteers is a big obstacle that needs to be overcome and eventually repaired.
I spent one day a week, every week, in the classroom for the entire school year when my son was in Kindergarten. It took 3 months before any adults in the school would really talk to me or make me feel like part of the team. Now the kids, they loved having me there admiring their work and progress and praising them in their efforts. My husband was the big star of the day when he would show up to volunteer. A “Dad” in the classroom or on a field trip was a pretty big deal and not very common at my son’s school.
These kids need multiple positive adult role models in their lives. They are starved for it and the door should never be shut or closed on those individuals willing to come into the classroom and be a part of that influence.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Karen, Doesn’t ‘love’ your children mean the parent looks
out for their children’s future?
I know a couple who loves their children and did a great job raising them, with one exception, in my opinion
They planned family outings and vacations to suit themselves – never considered the child’s school times/days as a factor. They simply took the children out of school for vacations or play time.
They certainly loved them but how can a child value an education when the parents seems to discard its importance?
One of them as a teen, left for school but went elsewhere. The letters and calls from school informing that the child wasn’t in class, were shrugged off as, “It’s her decision.”..and the child kept pretending to go to school and attend school functions the parents encouraged.
It was a shock for them to discover at graduation that the child didn’t have the credits to graduate, had actually quit school.
Involving the parents in their child’s education from the beginning may help later, I don’t know. I hope so. Most of the present day parents I know work out of the home and not available during class hours.
Good comments, ladies…
Sharon O’Hara
September 10th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Sharon, not every family is able to take vacation time during school breaks. I respect what you are saying but I think you are dismissing a little too easily what can come of this “family time” if it is executed and followed through as a learning experience.
For example, my husband cannot get time off during the summer, winter or spring breaks because of seniority or complete bans of time off during certain times of the year and he has been at his job for 20 years. Last November (2008), we took my son Nick out of school for a week. It was planned months before and I worked with his teacher to make sure we had his handouts and homework with us to complete before we left. His Grandparents in Georgia loved having the experience of helping him with his homework while we were there.
During the vacation he was also required to keep a journal with two pages of writing and illustrations outlining details for every day of the trip. On November 14th he was able to witness the last night time scheduled launch of the Space Shuttle. The next day we spent the entire day at Kennedy Space Center where he learned firsthand about science and our exploration of space. He took a picture of one of the Apollo rockets which he entered into the PTA Reflections Art Program upon our return and won 2nd place. We also had lunch while we were there with one of the lesser known Astronauts who had been on 1 mission to the space station. What he learned and experienced on those two days excited him more about math and science than anything he had previously experienced in the classroom. It rocked his little world.
So to say that the only things and experiences worth learning happen in the classroom is not true. And that all family choices to remove kids from school for a few days are all bad.
Personally, one of the reasons I would love to see year round school is for families like mine who need a little more flexibility and choices when it comes to scheduling time away.
September 10th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
“to say that the only things and experiences worth learning happen in the classroom is not true.”
Colleen, I wasn’t clear enough, apparently. Reread my post…I did not say “the only experience worth learning happen in the classroom.” I know differently. Nor did I claim “all family choices to remove kids from school for a few days are all bad”… reread the post.
I questioned how a child can learn to respect school when the parents show a disregard for it. Not ALL parents, not ALL kids.
Sharon O’Hara
September 11th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Cool. Thanks Sharon.
Reminder to self next time Angela Dice lobbies for comments and suggestions on what the Sun can do to make the blogs better…let’s remember to mention the “your comment is too short, please go back” rather annoying setting. Sometimes just a couple of words is all you really need to convey the point. Yes, I really only typed this paragraph so that it would be long enough to be accepted. (smile)
September 11th, 2009 at 8:45 am
I don’t know that parent involvement IN the school is as necessary as parents’ attitudes about learning in general. You do not need to be a PhD or even a high school diploma to encourage your children to learn for themselves. Teachers who make learning exciting and fun while giving appropriate level of challenges help students to stay focused. It also helps students own their education. It takes the adults who are important to the child to instill these values in them. Sometimes, that adult is not related and is not a teacher, i.e., sometimes it is a family friend or a coach, but often it is. The earlier the child grasps that HE is in control of his education and that his eduction is the key to his future the better.
Please don’t tell me I don’t have a clue what I am talking about. I have spent countless hours in our local classrooms as a volunteer, I am in the process of raising three kids the oldest of whom is preparing to graudate a year early, and I am up to date on the latest education trends and theories. I also know children who by all accounts should have been successful in school, but instead caused problems for themselves and others because of lack of understanding of what an education meant to them mostly because no one ever really tried to discuss it with them. By the time kids are in the fifth or sixth grade it takes something huge to change their attitudes.
Sharon, I like your comments. I would disagree slightly, however. I think that when parents show a disrespect for LEARNING that it is bad. Sometimes, parents have a unique opportunity to share something with their kids outside of school, but that is still a learning opportunity. It is even better when the teacher recognizes this and allows the child to explain the event and why it was a learning experience.
September 11th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Jessica … Thanks for disagreeing with me in a kind manner…and I agree with you that learning is more than a school.
Parents will show and teach their children what is important to them…and include their values. Yes, life experiences are invaluable, I know that fact well…
To me, school is like a first job. Among other things, the child learns the discipline of routine, obligation and how to get along or not get along with their peers and authority figures.
The frosting is the excitement of learning new things from excellent teachers eager to share their knowledge. The teachers help guide young minds into using their natural curiosity to expand mindsets to the fun and possibilities in life and its puzzles.
With good schools and teachers, even without parent support, the kids should grow into a lifelong curiosity and love of learning.
I think we may be heading to the same place but use different paths to get there…
Sharon O’Hara
September 15th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
When I was talking about parental involvement, I wasn’t even suggesting volunteering at your kids school, though that would be great! Involvement to me is checking your kids homework and backpack often, holding them accountable for poor behavior, answering teachers calls, making sure the kids is fed, rested and prepared to learn. Sounds so basic, I know, but you’d be amazed at the neumber of parents that aren’t doing that.